Manchester United versus Liverpool is, says Sir Alex Ferguson, the biggest fixture of the season. Few fans will disagree. Despite Liverpool’s failures over the past 20 years there is still something highly evocative about the fixture, from the historical rivalry between these old Lancashire towns, to the genuine animosity between managers Ferguson and Kenny Dalglish. There will be little love lost as United visits Anfield Saturday lunchtime.
It is a game all about intensity of the encounter and history of the event, even if the gulf between the clubs has grown significantly. Now a cliché, of course, but on the pitch Liverpool has been well and truly “knocked off their perch,” with United claiming a 19th domestic championship last season. That Liverpool has only rarely challenged for the title over the past two decades says much for the huge gap that has developed between the clubs.
United’s larger support, better team and greater success on the pitch has eroded the rivalry for trophies perhaps but not that between supporters, with the usual hostile Anfield atmosphere expected.
“I think the fans play a part, there is no doubt about that,” said Ferguson of the fixture between England’s two giants of the game.
“In my time we’ve had nine players sent off there which is unusual for Manchester United so that is all down to the atmosphere that can be created there. Although things may change in the next few years with Manchester City, whether the derby game can be equal to Manchester United-Liverpool game, because I’ve always considered it to be the game of the season in English football and at the moment I think it remains that.
“I think they’re the two most successful clubs in England historically and also from an initial point of view when industry changed and they opened the ship canal. It had a lot to do with the history of both cities and both clubs. It’s an inherent situation. It’s been here since I came.
“I think both clubs need each other. The history both clubs have should be appreciated by both sets of fans and that’s sometimes annoying when I hear silly chants about Munich and Hillsborough, I don’t think it does either club any good at all because without each other it wouldn’t be the English league.
“The history of both clubs should be respected and hopefully we can see that because it’s fantastic for fans to see these games – the rivalry, great footballers, the intensity… to me it’s the game of the season.”
United heads into the fixture welcoming back key players from injury, including influential captain Nemanja Vidic, who completed 90 minutes of Serbia’s Euro 2012 qualification defeat in midweek. However, midfielder Tom Cleverley isn’t ready to make the bench, although Chris Smalling may be fit for the 236th tie between the sides.
“The big question mark is whether Vidic is ready for the game tomorrow,” Ferguson added.
“He’s certainly had his first game for Serbia on Tuesday, played a full game, so it’s certainly a consideration because he’s such a good competitor. He came in yesterday and felt OK. But the Liverpool game is such an intense, draining game that you want everybody to be 100 percent so it maybe more down to how he feels himself really.
“Jonny Evans’s form has been absolutely brilliant so I don’t have any real concerns about who I play because they’re all playing well.”
Meanwhile, Ferguson must choose whether to rush Javier Hernández back from international duty in South American to partner the embattled Wayne Rooney in attack.
Ferguson will also boast a plethora of choices at right-back, even if Smalling fails to make the fixture. Phil Jones came through England’s fixture in Montenegro, while Fabio da Silva is fit after appearing for Brazil. Ferguson confirmed that the youngster’s brother Rafael is back in training, while there are no fresh injuries resulting from the past week’s international fixtures.
Dalglish, meanwhile, can boast a fully fit squad including, in Luis Suarez, a striker who has impressed with moments of brilliance this season. That said, much like his team, the Uruguayan suffers from inconsistency. Behind the Scouse-friendly headlines the statistics bear witness to a striker that has some way to go before the Liverpool-driven comparisons with Lionel Messi are realistic.
Whether the fixture survives without controversy is another matter altogether. Indeed, the United manager may have genuine concerns about referee Andre Marriner, who sent off Nemanja Vidic in 2009. This is the same official who failed to dismiss Gerrard despite the Liverpool captain audibly swearing at the West Midlands-based referee and raising a double-fingered salute. Ferguson will hope that Marriner is far stronger in the face of a hostile atmosphere than in the past.
In the end, however, United’s result at Anfield will depend far more on Ferguson’s outfit performing better than in the last three visits. Those three Liverpool victories is the Anfield club’s best run at home against United since nine in a row between 1972 and 1979.
“We have not played as well as we should have [at Anfield],” Rio Ferdinand told ManUtd.com
“We have given away some soft goals here and there. Over the first seven years I was at this club, we had a really good record against Liverpool, home and away. A lot of those victories were based around defending well as a team – playing collectively, not as individuals. If we do that at the weekend, I am confident we can get a good result.”
The few United supporters allocated a ticket for the fixture expect nothing less.
Match Facts
Liverpool v Manchester United, Premier League, Anfield, 12.45pm, 14 October 2011.
Likely Line-ups
Liverpool (4-4-2): Kelly, Reina; Carragher, Škrtel, Enrique; Kuyt, Lucas, Gerrard, Downing; Suarez, Carroll. Subs from: Doni, Johnson, Agger, Aurélio, Coates, Wilson, Flanagan, Robinson, Henderson, Rodríguez, Spearing, Adam, Bellamy, Coady, Sterling.
United (4-4-1-1): de Gea; Jones, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra; Nani, Anderson, Fletcher, Young; Rooney; Hernández. Subs from: Lindegaard, Amos, Fabio, Pogba, Valencia, Carrick, Diouf, Giggs, Park, Welbeck, Berbatov, Owen.
Performance Stats
- United retains four players in the top 10 in the EA SPORTS Player Performance Index. Rooney is in top spot, with midfielders Anderson and Ashley Young in third and fourth respectively
- Rooney is the Premier League’s top goal scorer with nine goals this season from 32 attempts at goal, with 59 per cent on target
- Nani is United’s top passer with 185 passes this season and is also the Premier League’s top dribbler having completed 32 dribbles, and 29 crosses this season
- Young, meanwhile, has completed 30 dribbles and delivered 25 crosses.
Form
Liverpool: WLWWW
United: WWDDW
Officials
Referee: Andre Marriner
Assistants: S Ledger, M McDonough
Fourth Official: P Dowd
Good preview – as always
however, you say that Anderson is due a good performance but what about Carrick? He hasn’t had anything like a decent game for the past 2 seasons and if he gets picked for the match, we are well and truly screwed
Do we really expect United to line up in a 4-4-2 formation?
De Gea
Smalling / Rio / Evans / Evra
Jones / Fletcher / Giggs
Park / Welbeck / Young
I don’t know what to make of this. Park on the wing cannot be a good thing.
Your line up is a bit daft Ed.
Rooney and Hernandez???
What were you thinking?
“Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don’t need badges. I don’t have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and ching’ tu madre! Come out from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you.”
Yeah dunno… was being optimistic I guess… when on the pod I said Hernandez wouldn’t play
Having downloaded and re-watched the match, I have a couple of observations:
The fact that Andre Marriner continues to be assigned big games shows just what a dearth of quality officials exists in the EPL. And, on the day that I’m reading reports that Giggs could play yet another season at United, he has the worst 90 minutes I have ever seen from him. I don’t understand how he stayed on. Giggs is one of my all-time favorite players, but I don’t want to see him in the red shirt next season. Not only is he pretty much past it, but his presence in the side will mean that, once again, United have failed to address the problems in midfield.
EDIT: Oh yeah, United really need to work on some fundamentals in practice. They are pretty woeful at retaining possession from throw-ins, and they absolutely suck at heading the ball to teammates.
that suarez is a fucking disease on the prem
fair play on the racism tho
All there is, is Evras word… it won’t hold up.
too fond of the race card evra
That’s bollocks.
where did you download it from?
Im more likely to believe Evra than the cheating cunt Suarez.
Yeah, that is utter bollocks. His only other incident was that Chelsea one, when Phelan and another member of the coaching staff backed him up. There was another game when two United fans reported a player for racially abusing Evra. He said nothing about it himself. Knobhead living up to his moniker there, unfortunately.
He says there is video evidence. And Liverpool have questioned Suarez and the ref included the apparent abuse in his report, so there is some weight behind the allegations
But then Busquets was filmed clearly saying MONO MONO toward Marcelo toward and Uefa did fuck all about it
http://pakmans-footy-blog.blogspot.com/
You’ll have to scroll down a ways. Last night, thinking it might be a documentary about the possible breakaway European super league, I downloaded something called A League of Their Own. Imagine my surprise… Funny as fuck at times, though.
EDIT: If I remember correctly, their is an HD version of the match involving five or six downloads which came after (and is thus above as you scroll down) a Highlights entry, which is above the three download version (two if you don’t get the pre-game) that I downloaded.
you should have a picture of that cunt suarez as your avatar you fuckhead
he’s accused finnan off liverpool of racism as well aint he
no doubt the same utd fans who’ll be quick to slaughter suarez before its proven are the same ones who laughed off henry claiming carroll was racist toward him a few years back on the grounds henrys a cunt
Knobby,
in your attempt to be different you just appear a tool.
Your a troll, Evra never accused Finnan of racial abuse.
A deaf fan accused Steve Finnan of racist abuse after lipreading it and then reported it to the police. Not Evra. In any case, Evra has every right to name and shame as much as he wants. Accusations of “playing the race card” sound like an attempt to provide safe habour to racists to me. The issue is racism and if Evra is man enough to have gone public twice when many have remained apologists for racism then he deserves our support. People will say “where’s the proof”- I say, why doubt Evra?
If Suarez were standing over me making racial slurs after having kicked me, I’d call him a diving little pussy before getting up and getting on with it. Words only have the power to hurt us to the extent that we let them.
I agree, and any player proven to be racist should be outed and shamed… I think he’d find it hard to find a team that would have him…
But in my opinion, being wrongly called a racist is worse than any insult a racist might use… because it might be believed.
Got to have proof, whether we believe Evra or not.
Alfonso – not sure I agree, but it does depend on the nuance of your argument. If you’re saying nobody can make the accusation of racism without proof its another safe harbour for racism. I’m sure that if Suarez did call Evra a “N****r” he wasn’t doing it in front of the referee or by Sky mics. There was a report in the Guardian saying Liverpool want Evra banned if he can’t prove his accusation. If we applied that same logic outside of football then thousands of women would go to prison each year after claiming rape and then only a small percentage being ‘proved’ in court. Point being if this is one man’s word against another then so be it… but Evra has every right to his freedom of speech. The suggestion that “you’ve got to have proof” removes it.
Now if we’re talking about punishment for Suarez.. then of course there has to be proof.
I agree and it’s an absolutley ridculous idea that someone should be banned for reporting a racist comment. On the whole is it really that surprising that racist comments are uttered in English top flight football? Not really! As a nation politically, lawfully and socilally our attitude towards racism compared to the rest of the world is fairly advanced (but far from perfect). Yet at the level I play I still hear racist comments and “jokes” in the dressing room from time to time but never on the pitch. I hear comments in pubs in my home town of St Helens which are unacceptable. Head to Australia and New Zealand or the East coast of USA and you will openly hear comments that would be unacceptable and beyond the norm in this country. Go to the South Pacific islands or Latin America and you will hear racist comments that are straight up nasty!Yet rarely frowned on.Even certain parts of Europe have quite different levels of “acceptable” racism (note their are no acceptable levels). So throwing all these differring attitudes into a heated, passionate environment like the Prem league and it’s not that surprising that racist comments are uttered. I must stress that the above is not an excuse or me condoning such comments because I do not! But just an observation possibly explaining why it’s not that surprising that it happens. I think on balance he probably did say something either very offensive and actual or close to a racist comment or was mis-heard. In my opinion as potty as our Paddy is it’s unlikely he would make such allegations without good reason.
so i take it u have never been on the receiving end of racist abuse
calling someone a diving pussy is way different from calling him a nigger or a paki – the 2 don’t come close
tbf….i’ve been called both
being called names while being buggered by uncle fuckheadcocksucksmalldick doesn’t count cap’n
I have been called “gringo”, “gaijin”, and “gwailo” at various times, but the worst I’ve ever experienced occurred in ’63, when my family returned to the States after spending three years in Germany. Even though we only stayed for a couple of weeks in New York City before moving on to the West Coast, my mother made me go to school there. The teacher introduced me to the class and explained that I had just come from Germany, so at recess, some of the kids started calling me “nazi” and throwing pebbles at me.
The distinction between “nigger” and “diving little pussy” is so small it isn’t worth talking about, since it is the intent behind using either that is important. It is the failure to understand this that keeps people trying to cure racism by addressing only one of its less consequential symptoms. No one ever died from being called “nigger”, and not everyone who has used the word is a racist, while many who have refrained from using the word, are.
Yeah…I appreciate what you are trying to say however, to take the view that the N word is no longer valid as a racist comment or now some kind of red herring is to ignore it’s origin and until recently it’s general usage. I’m English and I have never heard any black friends use the word only white ones in an ironic (yet stupid in my view) hip-hop manner. The line needs to be drawn somewhere and language/communication is the first place. Would I use the word’s Paki and Nigger in front of Black or Pakistani people…no…I wouldn’t be comfortable or confident that it would not offend. I think it’s offence and the people I know who are black find it offence. I have no Pakistani friends only Indian although I have never heard the word Paki uttered in a positive manner.
great night though
this is no distinction between calling someone a nigger and a diving little pussy!
no one ever died from being called a nigger? you are a fucking idiot – there are countless examples of racially abused blacks, indians, chinese who have reverted to suicide as the only option out – especially, at school.
of course a word itself creates not physical pain but you are simply stupid if you cannot appreciate the mental oppression racism causes an individual or a community.
you have displayed a completely one dimensional way of thinking.
as for intent, that is just a mask behind defending racists, bullies, bigots and sexists:
“i called him a black bastard but i didn’t mean it” – fuck off, no one has any right to call anyone that in this day and age – and defend it on the basis that it is meaningless banter.
as for diving pussies – dear oh dear; I’m sure there is no community or class in known as “diving pussies” that were victims of at least 500 years of slavery, terror, death, destruction and oppression … same goes to native indians in the americas, aboriginals in the antipodies … ffs.
if you think “nigger, nazi, paki, raghead, etc” are just words, then you are very stupid indeed
i wouldn’t say it was worse but agree with you that there should be sanctions / recourse against those with baseless accusations of racism. it can have a terrible effect on the wrongfully accused.
I’m pretty sure the people who were called Nigger just before, or while, they were lynched would feel differently about your penultimate assumption there, Rob. If they hadn’t been murdered due to the colour of their skin, of course.
Thing I hate about the “N” word is that, black culture is so ingrained into modern society..that the constant use of the word by “rap artistes” and the like has effectively made the word common place in todays vocabulary..this has made any use of the word normal, for example, where I live loads of white kids now call each other it…wtf?
If it was a black bloke calling Evra that, nowt would be said, but black culture has effectively destroyed the significance of the word to the point where its origins and true significance have rendered it slang…. Shame.
Horrible word, but now it is just that…a word…imo…
I know Suarez has to answer for the allegations put at him..( i’m with Evra on this)…but i think society as a whole has to take a good hard look at itself and point the finger at those responsible for stripping the word of it’s true meaning and history……it’s like the slave trade almost never happened to some of them….
Finally…ironic that it’s an accusation being aimed at an employee of the marquee club, of one of the worlds biggest slave trades cities.
How apt.
no, it is still valid in context, but the constant use of it in todays society and culture has stripped it of it’s true meaning to many….as a child of the 70’s and 80’s it was a vile word…one with true menace and hatred when uttered…now it’s lost the stigma….and i think as a result of your fifty cents etc this is the reason why…
Would have been funny if Evra had called Suarez a cracker though……we’d all have laughed at that for some bizarre reason
Would have been incorrect though. Crackers are white people. Suarez is latino not sure of any racist terms for latin/south and central americans. Nobody need answer that. Anyway if he did say it make an example of him. If he didn’t then Evra should say sorry but the FA should take the opportunity to push the kick it out campaign. Now, can we start a thread on utter shite ref’s in all levels of football? Keep having my weekend ruined by the clowns!
Refs..yeah me and you both…
Point was with the cracker comment, that it is similar to Asian people with the “Paki” comment…calling an Indian bloke a “paki”, would be akin to calling a south american a cracker….based on skin colour not fact.
I think what i am trying to get across is White people react to racism differently…I have been called all sorts due to being the only kid of a polish origin in a little town….”polish cunt” “the pole”…”that foreign lad” etc etc My name constantly mispronounced on purpose for the amusement of various bellends…never bothered me though for some reason…now its been accentuated by the massive influx of Polish workers and the hatred and vitriol aimed towards them…anyway, i hope you get what I mean.
Ah right I get you! Such a shame and makes me so angry the anger towards Polish from ignorant Brits.
My Grandad and Dad always have (had, Grandad passed away) the highest regard for the Polish with their efforts against the Nazi’s. If people looked back at WWII and understood the impact and bravery of the Polish people we would be rolling the red carpet out for them. First to fight, didn’t collaborate, massive underground resistance and continued to fight with us all over the world under a Polish administration set up in UK (I think). Great country as well keep meaning to take the missus.
This is true: the Poles who fought in the RAF and with the British forces made a heroic contribution to the war against the Nazis. But watch Sophie’s Choice again for the other half of the story: the deep anti-semitic feeling amongst the Polish people in occupied Poland during WW2.
Lost its stigma to a younger generation, yeah, possibly. That ties in with what comedian Stephen K Amos said on Stephen Fry’s Planet Word programme last week.
IMO it depends on how the word is used
If Suarez said to Paddy ‘Yo nigga, fancy freestylin’ before this corner comes in?’ and they both started rapping in front of the Kop then he might have a case.
But if he’s just said ‘N***** ‘N***** ‘N***** ‘N***** ‘N***** ‘N***** ‘N***** ‘N***** ‘N***** ‘N*****’ ten times then he’s clearly a racist cunt
No, no… Evra has every right to out the fucker, whether it’s proven or not… it might end up that only he and Suarez know the truth, but people will then be watching Suarez.
I’m just saying that, without the cold, hard footage or a witness, nothing is going to come of this.
And of course, we have to admit the possibility that Evra is lying… just to drop a player he may not like into shit… same as the possibility that Suarez might not be a racist in the true sense, but called Evra a “nigger” just to wind up the black man, with the aim to provoke a sending off offence. Some players are just dirty fuckers that will resort to anything to win a match.
I’ll never forget that little cunt Dennis Wise clashing with Scholes… both on the ground after a tackle, and as they were getting up, Wise leaned in and slyly pinched the inside of Scholes thigh… must have hurt, and Scholes was NOT happy.
And as for punishing players for crying “racist”, if what was claimed can’t be proven… fuck that… racism is a serious problem… not too bad in the English game, and I want to keep it that way… you don’t want to scare players into keeping their mouths shut, just to avoid punishment… it’s the racists that need be afraid.
“Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don’t need badges. I don’t have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and ching’ tu madre! Come out from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you.”
That was Nicky Butt I think wasn’t it?
Might have been… but it was definitely Wise who pinched.
Oh aye – it was definitely Wise. Horrible little cunt he was…..he had one of those faces…….
Have you been bitten by a bat or raccoon recently; you’re starting to foam at the mouth. Your knee-jerk reaction to my comments indicates that you either lack the ability or haven’t taken the time to think it through. I did not write anything that isn’t true.
The 500 years of slavery that you just had to mention is completely irrelevant; no one born in the U.S. who was not subjected to the draft knows anything about what it’s like to be a slave. Ah, but “The Man” has been suppressing a certain ethnic minority for the hundred plus years since slavery was abolished, right? So let me ask you this: how is it that certain Asian minorities show up in this country, impoverished and unable to speak the language, but in one generation their children are attending Stanford and Berkeley? It’s no wonder that there is such a great animosity between the Asian and Black communities in this country; the successes of the former reveal the whining excuses of the later for exactly what they are.
Now, I’ll save you some time: you’ll reply by ignoring what I have said except to somehow turn it into proof that I hate Blacks and have no empathy for people, blah, blah, blah. It’s not true, but you will be determined to believe it, and so you will, but you won’t be able to convince me that it’s true, so don’t bother trying.
I’ll save you even more time and answer the question for you. As several discoveries in Quantum Physics and certain metaphysical traditions have been trying to tell us: perception creates reality. The Asians arriving on these shores see America as the land of opportunity, while other ethnicities see it as the land of the white oppressor. Strangely enough, both find that they are correct.
Get back on point Ron:
1. explain what you mean’t by “calling someone a nigger never hurt anyone”? I have elabrorated on why this is one-dimensional and simply wrong, and Red has also expanded on this.
2. explain why in the context of racism substance is more important than form, i.e., it is the “intent” that is important behind either, rather than what you say, or presumably do.
Please elaborate and don’t go off point with your tiresome attempts to flash us with science.
Just to avoid any doubt, it was never stated or implied that you hate blacks so don’t take the moral high ground on this. Stop being so insecure.
You were called a fucking idiot and very stupid which you are for the stance you are taking. The debate about the success of asians v. blacks is irrelevant to the issues you first raised: namely, calling someone a nigger did not hurt anyone and it’s not what you say but what you do that is important.
1. That is not a quote of mine by the way, but it is a simple fact that a word has no power to physically injure or kill anyone. It is up to each and every individual to assign the meaning and emotional content that each word will carry for them.
2. As to substance vs. form, cap has already pointed out the difference, but I’ll recap (no pun intended). If in next week’s match with City, Micah Richards were to say to Evra, “give it up, nigger; you’ll get no joy down this side”, Evra’s response would probably be much different than that to his hearing the words come out of Suarez’s mouth (allegedly). Richards doesn’t mean anything by his use of the ‘N’ word, while Suarez apparently does, but it is up to Evra to make the distinction. Take it one step further: if Richards said the same thing to Giggs, he would probably be met with a quizzical look and nothing more. So, the word itself (form) has no intrinsic value; it is the perceived intent behind the use of the word that gives it all the meaning and emotional charge it seems to have.
I hope I haven’t blinded you with science (notice I didn’t put that in quotes), but my point is that trying to cure racism by banning the use of certain words by certain ethnicities is doomed to fail. It is merely papering over the cracks. Racism, that is the irrational hatred of others based solely upon race, color, country of origin, etc., needs to be eradicated, but attacking words is like scratching a mosquito bite: it might feel good for a moment, but it only makes things worse. Get at the underlying cause of racism, and the hateful words will disappear as a result.
Say, isn’t it unfair that you get to introduce the totally irrelevant 500 years of slavery, but I am not allowed to answer?
“Richards doesn’t mean anything by his use of the ‘N’ word, while Suarez apparently does, but it is up to Evra to make the distinction.”
That’s nonsense… yeah, Richards calling Evra “nigger” is the same a me calling Cap a “cunt”…
But a white man calling a black man “nigger” is the ultimate insult… it’s always been that way, “because” of it’s links with the days of slavery… it’s the same as saying… “you are less than me, you are shit, you are even less value than my mules”.
Sure it may only be a word, but not to a black man hearing that from a white man… you might as well haul up a big greener, and spit it right in his face.
And see what that gets you… and there’s not many that would say you didn’t deserve it.
“Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don’t need badges. I don’t have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and ching’ tu madre! Come out from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you.”
There is no objective basis for this claim. Precisely because it is up to each individual to apply meaning to words, I will tell you that my definition for the word would be the equivalent of “white trash” or the kind of people Chris Rock talks about in his “I hate niggers” routine from the mid to late ’80s.
Also, I do not appreciate the implication that I have any desire to call anyone nigger.
aye it was
and the rent boy got him sent off to boot at stamford bridge and we went on to lose 5-0 that sad sunday afternoon – taibi in goal
still riles how that piece of snake shit wise ever became a manager
” I do not appreciate the implication that I have any desire to call anyone nigger.”
Oh ffs… get off the floor, no one was implying any such thing… just making the point that you… a white man… have got a cheek… to even suggest that the word “nigger”, is JUST, another word, to a black man.
“Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don’t need badges. I don’t have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and ching’ tu madre! Come out from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you.”
Agreed! Just not for a white person to dictate how a black person feels about the N word. Just don’t use it (and don’t be racist).
I have made no such assertion. But speaking of cheek, do you get to set the definition and implication of the word in question for both the speaker and listener based on your mod powers, or do you suffer from some other form of delusional grandeur?
Here are a couple of points to ponder:
1. A black man may call another black man “nigger”, but I cannot. So, my rights are different to those of a black man. That doesn’t sound like equality to me.
2. Is it possible that I might object to being called “white boy” by a black man just as much as he would object to being called “nigger” by me? But I would not have the same recourse to the courts to address this hate crime, would I? So, I enjoy less protection under the law than a black man. Can this really be fair?
This is what I mean when i say that attempting to cure racism by driving its vocabulary underground is not the way to go about it.
Fuckin hell… what a load of shite.
You could start an argument with coma patient Mate.
aye and then shag him
Ron – are you going to persist in embarrassing yourself with your slippery responses? Please answer the questions posed to you – don’t back track, don’t go off topic by bringing in Stanford, quantum theory and vague notions of equality and recourse.
Calling someone a nigger – it never hurt anyone? So if I call a white person a honky bastard that shouldn’t matter so long as I didn’t mean it – only mens rea matters not the actus?
Have you lived in a cave all your life? Do you really believe that words have no impact on people – white, black, brown, yellow.
This isn’t about your personal crusade about recourse and equality – no one is saying that whites shld have less rights than blacks you dumb ass.
And now you want to define the vocabulary – go fuck yourself with you wikipedia sponsored “metaphysics” and try answering some of the questions you have been posed.
Once again, I must remind you that it takes more than your say-so to make something true. Refute or shut up.
Somehow I doubt in the heat of a toughly contested game that the nasty snide little shite that is Luis Suarez was making comment onto how the word nigger has found it’s way into popular and mainstream black culture and thus should be considered a word of greeting.
If true it simply has no place in football, to appease Diablo would Suarez have to make ape noises at Evra or are words not meant to hurt. Evra has grown up in what you would imagine to be some tough enough Parisian suburbs and experienced his fair share of this type of abuse.
As ever rant will find someone to defend the indefensible.
1. I believe I have answered each question put to me, while you, on the other hand, have not answered a single one I’ve posed.
2. Words have the power to hurt people’s feelings – if they choose to be hurt, but can cause no physical harm.
3. See my answer to 2. above.
4. Actually the law creates an inequality between the protections afforded to blacks and whites.
5. Please quote one instance where I have attempted to define a word for everyone. ‘Wikipedia sponsored “metaphysics”‘? Is that really the best you can do?
1. No.
2. I can only assume that your equating my arguments with a defense of racism as a total breakdown in your cognitive abilities.
should
4. Really? which laws
I am just going to say this and let it go:
As Alf indicated, the purpose of any insult is to let the receiver know that the giver considers him to be less or lacking in some manner that makes him inferior. Less of a man (“pussy”), less intelligent (“moron”), and so on. I don’t dispute this, but when you choose to elevate one insult above all others and, in so doing, give the receiver more protection and more leeway in how he chooses to respond, I can’t go along with that.
I despise Suarez – as a footballer – and would not have him on my team, but until he can be proven to have called Evra a “nigger”, I am willing to abuse him on the basis of what I know him to be: a diving little pussy, but no more than that. If, however, the allegations prove to be true, he should be punished accordingly. Now, if Evra had taken my advice, so to speak, and called Suarez a diving little pussy in return, and this was caught on tape as well, Evra’s punishment should be exactly the same as Suarez’s.
Hmmm, Quotes like ‘No one ever died from being called “nigger”, and not everyone who has used the word is a racist,’
I must apologise for my error, without defending racism you are certainly underplaying it and the effect of racist slogans.
Regarding a break down in my cognitive abilities, no one including yourself seems to have a clue of what your talking about. You can’t answer a straight question, you go off into a tangent and the body of your answer centres around Asian kids going to good University’s. Your talking through your arse.
Refute what?
You’re talking complete bollocks, and you seem to be the only one who doesn’t think so.
And you’ll find it easier to just admit that you’re full of shit, than to shut me up Mate… so fuck off!
I despise Suarez – as a footballer – and would not have him on my team, but until he can be proven to have called Evra a “nigger”, I am willing to abuse him on the basis of what I know him to be: a diving little pussy, but no more than that. If, however, the allegations prove to be true, he should be punished accordingly. Now, if Evra had taken my advice, so to speak, and called Suarez a diving little pussy in return, and this was caught on tape as well, Evra’s punishment should be exactly the same as Suarez’s.
That is easily the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever read on this forum…
And we’ve had some very… “ahem”, odd characters, with strange opinions here.
Come on Dude… your argument is just plain daft…
What? I notice you don’t give an explanation of the use of ‘nigger’ there (less white, perhaps? Or more black?). To suggest that racist insults are on a par with ‘pussy’ or ‘moron’ is utterly ludicrous. Words like nigger, paki etc are the language of ignorance at best, plain hatred at worst. There is no comparison to playful, or even playground insults which, while meant to belittle others, don’t have the dark history of nigger in particular, and I can’t believe you’re saying Evra should be punished the same way had he called Suarez a ‘diving little pussy’. That is just bizarre. I don’t think you’re racist, Rob, but your argument is way, way off the mark here.
“The longbow beats the crossbow, my idiotic friend”
LUHG
tbf, i kinda sorta see the point Ron is trying to make……you guys just aint letting him make it, as I don’t think he is racist at all, and I dont think he thinks it is right to use the “N” word, its just factually impossible to kill someone with a word
You cant just go up to a black guy call him “Nigger” and expect him to drop dead…same as you cant go up to a white bloke and call him “honky” and not expect him to piss himself..
Bit harsh tbf…
if you could….fuck…we’d all be trying it
the thing about ron is that he makes a comment, doesn’t explain and then starts his own debate about nothing that is relevant to the original comment. he then attempts to win his argument by trying to sound clever but actually he makes no sense – his sentences lack logic, reason and are woefully incoherent.
if ronny just stuck to making a point – say by using numbering or bullet points that would help him get his message across in a way that doesn’t make him look like he is dodging the questions
ron – if you want to start a thread about quantum physics just do it. don’t fucking bring bullshit into equation because it makes you look insecure. same goes for this asians v. blacks bollocks.
on that note, to suggest that blacks see themselves as oppressed whilst asians come to States and see it as a land of opportunity is incredibly prejudiced. i’m shocked that you can make such an accusation in such sweeping terms and think that that is true.
as Alf and Squigs have already suggested, ron starts with something provocative and then when he is challenged shifts the topic on to something which is irrelevant and he thinks that intellectualising it with a bit of quantum / metaphysics, makes him right.
the attempts to take the moral highground by saying don’t bother typing / I’m not saying any more on the subject and then coming back with some more rubbish, when he is questioned with his arrogant stance, is shameful.
No one is accusing him of being racist.
Just saying that he’s talking shit.
He’s more or less trying to make an extremely pedantic, and long winded argument for “sticks and stones”… and it’s true that words are not in themselves physically damaging… but who, in this world gives a fuck about that?
If you call me a white cunt, I’ll shrug it off… but if you call my missus a “nigger”, you’ll be lucky if all you get is a smack in the mouth… and yet, by his logic… what’s the difference?
Thing is… as far as I can tell… everyone here seems to get the distinction except him.
“Badges, to god-damned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don’t need badges. I don’t have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabrón and ching’ tu madre! Come out from that shit-hole of yours. I have to speak to you.”
true, but some people do get that detached from abuse that words are just words to some
again, when i hear poles getting slagged it doesn’t bother me…mainly as i am english, but by name people presume i’m a full on, job stealing polish cunt…
sad but true
Yes, sadly this is true as a lot of poles threw flowers into the path of the oncoming Nazi tanks at the start of the invasion…..I’m actually Catholic, but my family name is Hebrew and a lot of of my Grandfathers family were decimated by the Nazis during WW2…My grandfather was in the same POW camp as Pope John Paul the 2nd and after the war he never got to see his father again…. On his death bed he was that delirious with pain that he thought he was in the war again and it was probably the only time he addressed what he did in the war to the nazis whilst on his deathbed
I cant imagine having to live with the pain, suffering and knowledge of what he must have gone through, the having too kill or be killed..you know, knowing you killed men with families…killed men who had friends who had killed your own loved ones….the brothers and sisters you had lost etc…. sad really..but that is hatred and ignorance for you…
Long winded I know, but this is why I think the finger of blame needs to be pointed at a lot of high profile and influential black people who have belittled the word Nigger and how its meaning and impact the word had over the centuries has been lost as a result… Xibit kicked off a few months back about the whole planking phenomena…ironic really as he uses the “N” word all the time no doubt to help sell his thousands of records.
Fuck, if Evra has to get a ban for lying so be it…however, if Suarez has used racist abuse he should be banned from football for life…end of!!
LKHF
faffing
Both sides summed up here:
How Patrice Evra has never played the race card and why assumptions are dangerous
http://therepublikofmancunia.com/how-patrice-evra-has-never-played-the-race-card-and-why-assumptions-are-dangerous/
Well said. Alf, I’m sure he gets the distinction but for him this has become a matter of principle and he won’t acknowledge that because he’s a tosser. If he just said, actually, I did chat shit what I mean’t was x, y and z, people would say, fair fucks, let’s move on.
Instead he’s being slippery than his own fleshlight trying to duck the questions he has been confronted with and attempting to take the high ground with the implication that he is right – i.e., you thick cunts should be grateful that I am educating you.
His argument is flawed – he thinks like a robot 2 + 2 = 4, i.e., a white man should have just as much recourse as a black man. He does you pillock – but that type of robotic analysis which does not take into account history is utterly deluded.
is “capn hormone” polish then?
well i never…….
Last name… Shwitzki… what do you think?
u pulling my knob alf?
Shwitzki
wow!
no wonder capn’s always sticking up for unc
Rapist is not a job
its no hobby either
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,,11669_7257739,00.html
If something had to happen, it would’ve happened by now. There is no evidence.
Fergie can’t comment on the case… It won’t stop the press cunts asking him about it though
norwich have been much better than us